Re: How can Neal say Boulder's election was accurate

[Ralph Shnelvar <ralphs@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear Kell:

At the end of this post is a transcript of an online chat that I had with my
partner, Ralf.  You might find the transcript interesting for a variety of
reasons.

More comments interspersed, below.



On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:14:43 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Evan,  
>
>Do you know how many different races people typically
>vote on in one election in other countries?  Most
>(nearly all, if my comparative politics isn't too
>dated) European countries don't vote on amendments,
>initiatives, referendums, recalls, judges, etc. in
>elections.  

According to my partner in Germany, typically you get two or three votes in
any election.
>

>Just a reminder: it took three election judges about
>5+ hours to count only 597 ballots with only three
>races in the Spring 2004 Nederland election.  There
>were about 25-30 different contests in this Boulder
>County 2004 election, with some 150,000+ voters.  I'll
>let others do the math.

Well, the town that Ralf lives in, Riesa, has more than 37,000 residents.
According to Ralf they manage to get the hand counted results out in four to
eight hours.

I think we need to send the Nederland counters to Riesa on a junket so that
they can learn how to count faster.  :-)

Seriously, we need to learn from the rest of the world how to do this right.

>
>I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't handcount, given
>the obvious transparency, verifiability, and accuracy
>advantages.  
>
>But it would be nice to hear a definitive answer on
>this question from other countries.

Well, Ralf is not an expert on voting but I know him to be careful.  I would
give his answers better than a 99% chance of being totally accurate.

>
>kell

Ralph Shnelvar

>
>--- Evan Daniel Ravitz <evan@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Some Guy wrote:
>> 
>> > For the length of time that it took to count the
>> vote, it could have been
>> > done by hand in each precinct.
>> 
>> I believe countries that do it by hand do it in
>> precincts -in hours,
>> not days.
>> 
>> What we have is the kluge of kluges: Illegally
>> tested (thanks for
>> trying, Al) proprietary software running on Windows,
>> intersecting
>> with the vaguaries of printing, and the greatest
>> motive in history:
>> the Presidency.
>> 
>> If humans see imperfect boxes we have no problem
>> compensating.
>> 
>> But instead of hand-counting which is cheaper
>> ($1.82/vote in Canada
>> compared to $3-6 here) more accurate (according to
>> MIT/Caltech),
>> done in public (poll watchers watching) with the $
>> going to humans
>> not software corps, we will get a very sophistocated
>> expensive
>> way of making the boxes better, kluged on top of the
>> pile of shit
>> we're now buying.
>> 
>> Poll watchers THINK they're watching now, but
>> they're staring at
>> "black boxes."
>> 
>> Evan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
>		
>__________________________________ 
>Do you Yahoo!? 
>Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
>www.yahoo.com 
> 
>





Ralf  Good morning Ralph! About counting votes in Germany: I checked and
it's all completely hand counting, no machines. 

Ralph Thanks! Do you vote for mayor in local elections? 

Ralf  I don't know what "vote for major" means.... 

Ralph What do you call the person responsible for "running Riesa?" 

Ralf  Ah, this is the "Bürgermeister". Yes, he is elected "directly" by the
voters 

Ralph Yes, I should have known that name. Is he elected at the same time
with anyone else? What about the local legislature? I think Riesa is in
Saxony. Is there a Saxony government? Is it elected or appointed? Are these
elections also hand counted? 

Ralph The reason for all this is that there is suspicion in the U.S. that
Kerry actually won the election because the electronic voting machines were
hacked and that gave Bush the advantage. I really don't care if Bush or
Kerry won but I really do care if the election was a fraud. 

Ralf  The Bürgermeister is elected along with the regular elections (every 4
years) for the local government. Yes, there is a "saxony government". The
elected representatives appoint the government. Everything is hand counted.
Well, wasn't it that the head of the company making the voting machines is a
relative of Bush?  

Ralph Not a relative ... but he was a large political supporter. How many
people are elected when you elect the mayor? Do you elect a "City Council?"
What about other elected officials? How many other people are elected when
you elect the Bürgermeister? Here in Boulder we elect 5 people to be on the
City Council as well as people to be judges, run the schools, etc. How does
it work in Riesa? ... 

Ralph Also, how long does it take to get the election results back? 

Ralph BTW, there is a tenuous and funny twist between "Bürgermeister" and
Microsoft Windows. From
http://www.anandasangha.net/mysticmicrosoft/Chapter06.htm "Up through
Windows version 3.11 there was this special tool called ?Heapwalker? (a.k.a.
Luke Heapwalker) that allowed programmers to look at the way Windows had
organized the computer?s memory (called the ?heap?). Heapwalker always
showed ... 

Ralf  I need a few minutes to respond 

Ralph ... this one memory segment called ?Burgermaster.? For years people
wondered what this really meant. Finally the software engineer who put it in
there fessed up: the contents of the segment itself were so uninteresting
that he had had a hard time coming up with a name for it. For lack of
anything better, he christened it after the drive-in hamburger joint that he
could see out his window." 

Ralf  In local elections you have three votes that you can spread over
several candidates. The major is an additional vote. Judges etc. are not
elected directly, the city council appoints them 

Ralph English: "major" -> "mayor" 

Ralph What about the Saxony legislature? 

Ralf  Uh, "legislature"? The "saxony government"? 

Ralph Yes, the saxony government. In the U.S. we have a whole "government
level" at the state level. Is there the equivalent of a "governor of
Colorado" for Saxony? Do you get to vote for such a person? 

Ralf  Yes, it's called the "Ministerpräsident". You do not vote for him
directly, the party with the majority of votes appoints him. 

Ralph Ah. You get three votes for the local government. Do you elect anyone
else during such elections? How about a "School Board" or a "Fire District"?

Ralf  No. You only elect candidates put up by the parties 

Ralph So you vote for a party and they select a bunch of people for various
political offices? So in your local elections you get three votes and that
is it? How long does it take to count those three votes? That is, how long
before you know the results of the election? 

Ralf  Yes, that is it basically. Try letting Google translate
http://www.mdr.de/wahl/kommunalwahl-sachsen/wahllexikon/1411214.html
(www.google.com/translate). It usually takes 4-8 hours to count the votes. 

Ralph With all our computers and machines here in Boulder ... we're still
not finished. 

Ralf  What! Very interesting. 

Ralph Many thanks, Ralf, for that URL. VERY interesting. 

Ralf  OK :) 

Ralph I'm trying to find an article about the massive screw-up in Boulder. I
should have that in a few minutes. 

Ralf  Take your time 

Ralph
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/election/article/0,1299,DRMN_36_3315282,00.html

Ralph Ralf, do I have your permission to post this discussion to a "voting
discussion chat list"? 

Ralf  Sure, go ahead 

Ralph Thanks.