ERC meeting of Friday, March 18

[Ralph Shnelvar <ralphs@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear friends:

Per your request, Evan and I went down to testify.  We testified around 2
p.m. yesterday, Friday.

Paul Tiger was not there.  This is not to criticize him (He was excused) but
to have him know that he guilted me into going.  I said as much in my
testimony.

Evan did a great job testifying.

The highlight of the two hours I spent there, though, was Neal's wonderful
presentation on the way that auditing could be done.  He brought up a wealth
of good points.  He did a masterful job of saying "Hand counting is better
... but if you are not going to do full hand counting, here are ways to
insure that the electronically counted paper ballots are validated."

One really good point was made by the Chair, Mr. Lyons.  He pointed out that
he has observed elections in three other countries.  "If you want to control
an election, the point to do it is not during the counting but during
registration and canvassing," he said.  He asked that the activists pay
attention to these issues as well.  Neal, to his credit, said to Mr. Lyons,
"Yes, that's a very valid point."

Ladies and Gentlemen, I ask you to please consider that "easy registration"
(i.e. motor voter, mail-in registrations, "registration drives", etc.) are
an invitation to screw the electorate.

The political Left has been pushing to make it easier and easier to
register. The political calculation, I guess, is that the easier
registration is then those regristrants will vote Democratic/Green/Left. As
the last election showed, the Republicans did a masterful job of "turning
out voters".

As a Libertarian, I couldn't care less who won the last election; except to
the extent that the election seems to have had problems that leave me
uneasy.

Perhaps the best piece of political wisdom on this issue comes from the
movie, "The Sting".  In it Paul Newman beats Robert Shaw at a game of poker.
Robert Shaw says (and I'm going to paraphrase because I'm doing this from
memory), "How do you complain about a guy who cheats better than you do?"

We really do need to concentrate on the input side of the voting system:
resgistration. Only those who are supposed to vote should be allowed to
register to vote. Perhaps, even, to the extent that voter registration
should be tied to the tax roles.

I really dislike the above idea.  It makes my skin crawl.  But the voting
franchise is precious.  It should not be squandred.  Does anyone have a
better sugggestion?

In fact, this problem has existed for a long time.  My friend and attorney,
Marcy Newman, in Chicago made TV news 30 years ago when (with the permission
of the State Attorney General) she successfully registered he pet dog,
Macho, to be an Illinois voter.

I guess we could always register the adult prarie dogs in Boulder in order
to change the outcomes of elections.

Ralph Shnelvar


On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:57:38 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Evan,
>
>You could go to the ERC and wave the list of volunteer counters from 
>the Web site you created last year. No one else can do that.
>
>I suspect that true volunteers could not be used by the county to 
>count votes, but maybe the willingness of people to help out when 
>asked by someone they know should be taken into account. It's 
>different to receive an e-mail in which a friend asks one to sign up 
>compared to skimming over an advertisement in the Sunday paper in 
>which the county asks for election judges. The county might try the 
>"network" approach the next time that election judges are needed.
>
>All the best,
>Mary
>
>Mary C. Eberle
>1520 Cress Court
>Boulder, CO 80304, USA
>(303) 442-2164
>m.eberle@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.wordrite.com
>
>Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>
>> Peter:
>> 
>> You still have not explained why the presense of any person or group would
>> make any difference at all.
>> 
>> Ralph Shnelvar
>> 
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:57:26 -0700, you wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Ralph,  et al...
>>>
>>>I am going to give you a very short answer to your questions below about
>>>the usefulness of the ERC work that has been going on...
>>>
>>>Neal and/or  Joe may care to add more...
>>>
>>>I believe that there is a better than 50-50 chance the ERC will recommend
>>>that Boulder County dump,  repeat dump, the Hart Intecivic system that
>>>the County bought.
>>>
>>>This ERC group is not a rubber stamp for anyone...
>>>
>>>You should especially attend the meeting this Friday, 18 March.
>>>
>>>I has been discovered there were problems in the 'PS' file...  see email
>>>below from a member of the ERC group, which may be why Eagle Direct had
>>>the printing problems they had, through no fault of their own...
>>>
>>>Bye,  Peter Richards
>>>
>>>
>>>I think maybe we found the problem.  It was in the PS file.  Having the
>>>file reviewed by a PS person would more than likely find the problem.
>>>
>>>Tom Davidson P.E.
>>>
>>>
>>>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:56:27 -0700 Ralph Shnelvar <ralphs@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>writes:
>>>
>>>>Dear Peter:
>>>>
>>>>It is sometimes difficult to express emotional tone in an eMail so 
>>>>please
>>>>understand that the following is being written in a friendly way and 
>>>>that my
>>>>questions to you are not being written sarcastically or 
>>>>rhetorically.
>>>>
>>>>I am asking for your input to explain to me what you think will be
>>>>accomplished by either Evan or me showing up to an ERC meeting.  Is 
>>>>it just
>>>>to have two more bodies show up and display their disgust with the 
>>>>voting
>>>>process?
>>>>
>>>>From my perspective, the purpose of the committee is to
>>>>        Fix the machines
>>>>
>>>>Evan and my agenda is to have hand counted paper ballots.  Al's 
>>>>agenda is to
>>>>make sure that the electoral process is open, fair, and accurate.  I 
>>>>don't
>>>>know if he supports hand counted paper ballots but I suspect that he 
>>>>would
>>>>support hand counted paper ballots if there were the proper 
>>>>controls.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps a little background will help explain where I'm coming 
>>>>from.
>>>>
>>>>As people on this list may or may not know, both Evan and I are 
>>>>politically
>>>>active.  What may be surprising is that Evan and I are friends and 
>>>>that I
>>>>deeply respect (and agree with!) the vast majority of his political
>>>>positions.
>>>>
>>>>Both Evan and I are spread very thin fighting a multitude of 
>>>>political
>>>>battles.  Whether it is wise to be spread so thin is an open 
>>>>question but,
>>>>at least for me, being able to hook people up so that things get
>>>>accomplished is deeply satisfying.
>>>>
>>>>For instance, about a week ago I worked with my friends (both 
>>>>political and
>>>>otherwise), Thomas and Larissa Lawrence, to get them on local TV 
>>>>news.
>>>>Perhaps you remember them?  They were the people who successfully 
>>>>managed to
>>>>get their medical marijuana back from the Denver police.  It made 
>>>>front page
>>>>news.
>>>>
>>>>"Working" the press took me about 8 hours.  It meant taking the day 
>>>>off of
>>>>work and driving to the event and ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Peter, I have no idea if the medical marijuana issue is a hot button 
>>>>for
>>>>you.  Nonetheless, I hope you understand that there are only so many 
>>>>hours
>>>>that I can devote to these issues.  I do, in fact, have a job.  I'm 
>>>>trying
>>>>to sell my house.  I'm picking up a bridge loan to purchase yet 
>>>>another
>>>>house so that I have a place to move my family into when I sell this 
>>>>house.
>>>>I have to help my kids with their homework.  I've got a lot of balls 
>>>>in the
>>>>air.
>>>>
>>>>So, Peter, (and again, this is being written in a friendly way), do 
>>>>you
>>>>think that it is worth my time to attend this ERC meeting?  Let me 
>>>>put it
>>>>this way: If you were my boss and you saw all the things (both 
>>>>personal and
>>>>civic) that I was doing, would you tell me, "Ralph, attend the ERC
>>>>meeting."?
>>>>
>>>>I ask you this, Peter, because I may not know how important the ERC 
>>>>meeting
>>>>is.  I may be missing something.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, the press is covering it.  But I can tell you with absolute 
>>>>certainty
>>>>that this coverage is making no impact on the citizenry's 
>>>>consciousness.  I
>>>>know because I ask people.  You want the pulse of Boulder?  Talk to 
>>>>a random
>>>>barber and a hairdresser.
>>>>
>>>>My prejudice is that the ERC is a total waste of time for all the
>>>>participants.  If you feel differently, please explain why and then 
>>>>I will
>>>>make up my mind whether to take the time to attend this Friday.
>>>>
>>>>I am open to having my mind changed.
>>>>
>>>>Ralph Shnelvar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:51:23 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>To:  Evan Ravitz
>>>>>       Ralph Shnelvar
>>>>>
>>>>>From:  Peter Richards
>>>>>
>>>>>Date: Monday, 14 March 2005,     20:40
>>>>>
>>>>>Re:  Boulder County Election Review Committee
>>>>>
>>>>>It would be nice if either of you would come to an Election Review
>>>>>Committee meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>>In my memory, neither of you has attended one meeting...
>>>>>
>>>>>The next three meetings are as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>Fri. 18  March  2005,   13:00  to 17:00
>>>>>
>>>>>Fri. 25 March 2005,   13:00 to 17:00
>>>>>
>>>>>Fri. 1 April 2005,  13:00 to 17:00
>>>>>
>>>>>All meetings are at the 33rd St. Election headquarters, just north 
>>>>
>>>>of the
>>>>
>>>>>RTD garage, and across the street from the Boulder Police Dept.  
>>>>
>>>>They
>>>>
>>>>>meet in the Charlotte Houston room, on the north side of the 
>>>>
>>>>building, on
>>>>
>>>>>the ground floor.
>>>>>
>>>>>The last meeting for any public comment is the 1 April meeting !!
>>>>>
>>>>>Luckily, for the citizens of Boulder County, all three newspapers 
>>>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>been at every meeting.   The Daily Camera,  Colorado Daily and 
>>>>
>>>>Longmont
>>>>
>>>>>Times Call...
>>>>>
>>>>>I will be looking for you...  Bye,  Peter Richards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:42:28 -0700 (MST) Evan Daniel Ravitz
>>>>><evan@xxxxxxxx> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I think something like half of your 65% "clueless" are that way
>>>>>>because they "despair" of getting thru the spin and hype at the
>>>>>>truth with the time, energy etc they have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For example, they know it's not completely a joke when ERC chair
>>>>>>Richard Lyons said they might just put their cover on the
>>>>>>Republican's report on the election, as reported in the CO Daily
>>>>>>today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's unlikely the ERC will go beyond its charge and insist on 
>>>>>>public
>>>>>>voting software to make vote counting public and transparent 
>>>>
>>>>again.
>>>>
>>>>>>They will do what the bureaucrats want and talk about 
>>>>
>>>>rearranging
>>>>
>>>>>>deck chairs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But I will make the case for truly public vote counting at their
>>>>>>meeting soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Evan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:34:12 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I think the real question to ask about the low turnout at 
>>>>
>>>>these
>>>>
>>>>>>>>meetings and in the election is "do people care less?" or "do 
>>>>
>>>>>>people
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>feel more disenfranchised?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Certainly, a strong argument can be made that "people don't 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>care,"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>especially with a short term office like the City Council 
>>>>
>>>>vacancy 
>>>>
>>>>>>or an
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>exciting issue like the coordination of elections, but after 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>what
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>happened in November, isn't it also possible that people 
>>>>
>>>>aren't
>>>>
>>>>>>>>participating because they don't feel confident in the overall 
>>>>
>>>>>>process,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>as much as they may not care?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I know I've been as guilty as anyone in the past of adding to 
>>>>
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>noise, but given how low-volume this list has become, I hope 
>>>>
>>>>we 
>>>>
>>>>>>can
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>focus on the signal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks to everyone for all your efforts to help us achieve 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>trustworthy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>elections in Boulder County!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let me give a try at this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Both the Libertarian and Green parties have noticed - as you 
>>>>
>>>>have 
>>>>
>>>>>>noticed -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>that people simply are not willing to participate in politics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The cause of this is varied.  I'll catalog my unscientific 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>observations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(1) 65%: Clueless.  They are uninterested in politics and 
>>>>
>>>>couldn't 
>>>>
>>>>>>care less
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>if the country was run by George Bush or Chinese Premier Wen 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jiabao.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(2) 15%.  The free rider problem:  "I'll let someone else take 
>>>>
>>>>>>care of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>this."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(2) 10%.  Despair. Nothing I could possibly do will help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(3) 5%. I think elections are honest.  What are you talking 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>about?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(4) 4%. Between the kids, working two jobs, and sleep, I wish I 
>>>>
>>>>>>could help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(5) 0.5%: I'm involved politically but I can't devote any time 
>>>>
>>>>to 
>>>>
>>>>>>this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(6) 0.4%: I'm involved politically and I think that being able 
>>>>
>>>>to 
>>>>
>>>>>>rig the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>voting system is a very good thing. It means that my side has a 
>>>>
>>>>>>chance of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>winning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(7) 0.1%: I'll support this movement with my time and effort.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So how do we change things?  It's hard to do it without getting 
>>>>
>>>>>>people riled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Most of you already know my position on getting people riled 
>>>>
>>>>up.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Ralph Shnelvar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mar 13, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>As usual, I completely agree with Al.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Indeed, as you wrote on March 9:
>>>>>>>>>- - - - -
>>>>>>>>>Mr. Shaffer was involved in the LATs; he's the LP party 
>>>>
>>>>chair; 
>>>>
>>>>>>and was
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>candidate for SD17. His reward: insults.
>>>>>>>>>- - - - -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Why should I cooperate and/or testify when I already know 
>>>>
>>>>what 
>>>>
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>results
>>>>>>>>>will be?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>As Joe, I hope, will confirm, I have been moderately active 
>>>>
>>>>>>behind the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>scenes trying to make positive change.  I have met with Joe 
>>>>
>>>>& 
>>>>
>>>>>>Co. on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>several
>>>>>>>>>occasions.  I have met with Joe & Co. and Salas and Lewis to 
>>>>
>>>>>>try to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>get hand
>>>>>>>>>co
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> .
>>