Re: ERC meeting of Friday, March 18

[Paul E Condon <pecondon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Actually, one needs to be 18yrs or older to register to vote. I think
very few prairie dogs qualify. And a valid birth certificate...??? or
drivers license?

On Sat, Mar 19, 2005 at 09:01:16AM -0700, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
> Dear friends:
> 
> Per your request, Evan and I went down to testify.  We testified around 2
> p.m. yesterday, Friday.
> 
> Paul Tiger was not there.  This is not to criticize him (He was excused) but
> to have him know that he guilted me into going.  I said as much in my
> testimony.
> 
> Evan did a great job testifying.
> 
> The highlight of the two hours I spent there, though, was Neal's wonderful
> presentation on the way that auditing could be done.  He brought up a wealth
> of good points.  He did a masterful job of saying "Hand counting is better
> ... but if you are not going to do full hand counting, here are ways to
> insure that the electronically counted paper ballots are validated."
> 
> One really good point was made by the Chair, Mr. Lyons.  He pointed out that
> he has observed elections in three other countries.  "If you want to control
> an election, the point to do it is not during the counting but during
> registration and canvassing," he said.  He asked that the activists pay
> attention to these issues as well.  Neal, to his credit, said to Mr. Lyons,
> "Yes, that's a very valid point."
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen, I ask you to please consider that "easy registration"
> (i.e. motor voter, mail-in registrations, "registration drives", etc.) are
> an invitation to screw the electorate.
> 
> The political Left has been pushing to make it easier and easier to
> register. The political calculation, I guess, is that the easier
> registration is then those regristrants will vote Democratic/Green/Left. As
> the last election showed, the Republicans did a masterful job of "turning
> out voters".
> 
> As a Libertarian, I couldn't care less who won the last election; except to
> the extent that the election seems to have had problems that leave me
> uneasy.
> 
> Perhaps the best piece of political wisdom on this issue comes from the
> movie, "The Sting".  In it Paul Newman beats Robert Shaw at a game of poker.
> Robert Shaw says (and I'm going to paraphrase because I'm doing this from
> memory), "How do you complain about a guy who cheats better than you do?"
> 
> We really do need to concentrate on the input side of the voting system:
> resgistration. Only those who are supposed to vote should be allowed to
> register to vote. Perhaps, even, to the extent that voter registration
> should be tied to the tax roles.
> 
> I really dislike the above idea.  It makes my skin crawl.  But the voting
> franchise is precious.  It should not be squandred.  Does anyone have a
> better sugggestion?
> 
> In fact, this problem has existed for a long time.  My friend and attorney,
> Marcy Newman, in Chicago made TV news 30 years ago when (with the permission
> of the State Attorney General) she successfully registered he pet dog,
> Macho, to be an Illinois voter.
> 
> I guess we could always register the adult prarie dogs in Boulder in order
> to change the outcomes of elections.
> 
> Ralph Shnelvar
> 
> 
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:57:38 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >Hi Evan,
> >
> >You could go to the ERC and wave the list of volunteer counters from 
> >the Web site you created last year. No one else can do that.
> >
> >I suspect that true volunteers could not be used by the county to 
> >count votes, but maybe the willingness of people to help out when 
> >asked by someone they know should be taken into account. It's 
> >different to receive an e-mail in which a friend asks one to sign up 
> >compared to skimming over an advertisement in the Sunday paper in 
> >which the county asks for election judges. The county might try the 
> >"network" approach the next time that election judges are needed.
> >
> >All the best,
> >Mary
> >
> >Mary C. Eberle
> >1520 Cress Court
> >Boulder, CO 80304, USA
> >(303) 442-2164
> >m.eberle@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >www.wordrite.com
> >
> >Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
> >
> >> Peter:
> >> 
> >> You still have not explained why the presense of any person or group would
> >> make any difference at all.
> >> 
> >> Ralph Shnelvar
> >> 
> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:57:26 -0700, you wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>>Ralph,  et al...
> >>>
> >>>I am going to give you a very short answer to your questions below about
> >>>the usefulness of the ERC work that has been going on...
> >>>
> >>>Neal and/or  Joe may care to add more...
> >>>
> >>>I believe that there is a better than 50-50 chance the ERC will recommend
> >>>that Boulder County dump,  repeat dump, the Hart Intecivic system that
> >>>the County bought.
> >>>
> >>>This ERC group is not a rubber stamp for anyone...
> >>>
> >>>You should especially attend the meeting this Friday, 18 March.
> >>>
> >>>I has been discovered there were problems in the 'PS' file...  see email
> >>>below from a member of the ERC group, which may be why Eagle Direct had
> >>>the printing problems they had, through no fault of their own...
> >>>
> >>>Bye,  Peter Richards
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I think maybe we found the problem.  It was in the PS file.  Having the
> >>>file reviewed by a PS person would more than likely find the problem.
> >>>
> >>>Tom Davidson P.E.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:56:27 -0700 Ralph Shnelvar <ralphs@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>writes:
> >>>
> >>>>Dear Peter:
> >>>>
> >>>>It is sometimes difficult to express emotional tone in an eMail so 
> >>>>please
> >>>>understand that the following is being written in a friendly way and 
> >>>>that my
> >>>>questions to you are not being written sarcastically or 
> >>>>rhetorically.
> >>>>
> >>>>I am asking for your input to explain to me what you think will be
> >>>>accomplished by either Evan or me showing up to an ERC meeting.  Is 
> >>>>it just
> >>>>to have two more bodies show up and display their disgust with the 
> >>>>voting
> >>>>process?
> >>>>
> >>>>From my perspective, the purpose of the committee is to
> >>>>        Fix the machines
> >>>>
> >>>>Evan and my agenda is to have hand counted paper ballots.  Al's 
> >>>>agenda is to
> >>>>make sure that the electoral process is open, fair, and accurate.  I 
> >>>>don't
> >>>>know if he supports hand counted paper ballots but I suspect that he 
> >>>>would
> >>>>support hand counted paper ballots if there were the proper 
> >>>>controls.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Perhaps a little background will help explain where I'm coming 
> >>>>from.
> >>>>
> >>>>As people on this list may or may not know, both Evan and I are 
> >>>>politically
> >>>>active.  What may be surprising is that Evan and I are friends and 
> >>>>that I
> >>>>deeply respect (and agree with!) the vast majority of his political
> >>>>positions.
> >>>>
> >>>>Both Evan and I are spread very thin fighting a multitude of 
> >>>>political
> >>>>battles.  Whether it is wise to be spread so thin is an open 
> >>>>question but,
> >>>>at least for me, being able to hook people up so that things get
> >>>>accomplished is deeply satisfying.
> >>>>
> >>>>For instance, about a week ago I worked with my friends (both 
> >>>>political and
> >>>>otherwise), Thomas and Larissa Lawrence, to get them on local TV 
> >>>>news.
> >>>>Perhaps you remember them?  They were the people who successfully 
> >>>>managed to
> >>>>get their medical marijuana back from the Denver police.  It made 
> >>>>front page
> >>>>news.
> >>>>
> >>>>"Working" the press took me about 8 hours.  It meant taking the day 
> >>>>off of
> >>>>work and driving to the event and ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Peter, I have no idea if the medical marijuana issue is a hot button 
> >>>>for
> >>>>you.  Nonetheless, I hope you understand that there are only so many 
> >>>>hours
> >>>>that I can devote to these issues.  I do, in fact, have a job.  I'm 
> >>>>trying
> >>>>to sell my house.  I'm picking up a bridge loan to purchase yet 
> >>>>another
> >>>>house so that I have a place to move my family into when I sell this 
> >>>>house.
> >>>>I have to help my kids with their homework.  I've got a lot of balls 
> >>>>in the
> >>>>air.
> >>>>
> >>>>So, Peter, (and again, this is being written in a friendly way), do 
> >>>>you
> >>>>think that it is worth my time to attend this ERC meeting?  Let me 
> >>>>put it
> >>>>this way: If you were my boss and you saw all the things (both 
> >>>>personal and
> >>>>civic) that I was doing, would you tell me, "Ralph, attend the ERC
> >>>>meeting."?
> >>>>
> >>>>I ask you this, Peter, because I may not know how important the ERC 
> >>>>meeting
> >>>>is.  I may be missing something.
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes, the press is covering it.  But I can tell you with absolute 
> >>>>certainty
> >>>>that this coverage is making no impact on the citizenry's 
> >>>>consciousness.  I
> >>>>know because I ask people.  You want the pulse of Boulder?  Talk to 
> >>>>a random
> >>>>barber and a hairdresser.
> >>>>
> >>>>My prejudice is that the ERC is a total waste of time for all the
> >>>>participants.  If you feel differently, please explain why and then 
> >>>>I will
> >>>>make up my mind whether to take the time to attend this Friday.
> >>>>
> >>>>I am open to having my mind changed.
> >>>>
> >>>>Ralph Shnelvar
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:51:23 -0700, you wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>To:  Evan Ravitz
> >>>>>       Ralph Shnelvar
> >>>>>
> >>>>>From:  Peter Richards
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Date: Monday, 14 March 2005,     20:40
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Re:  Boulder County Election Review Committee
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It would be nice if either of you would come to an Election Review
> >>>>>Committee meeting.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>In my memory, neither of you has attended one meeting...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The next three meetings are as follows:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Fri. 18  March  2005,   13:00  to 17:00
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Fri. 25 March 2005,   13:00 to 17:00
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Fri. 1 April 2005,  13:00 to 17:00
> >>>>>
> >>>>>All meetings are at the 33rd St. Election headquarters, just north 
> >>>>
> >>>>of the
> >>>>
> >>>>>RTD garage, and across the street from the Boulder Police Dept.  
> >>>>
> >>>>They
> >>>>
> >>>>>meet in the Charlotte Houston room, on the north side of the 
> >>>>
> >>>>building, on
> >>>>
> >>>>>the ground floor.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The last meeting for any public comment is the 1 April meeting !!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Luckily, for the citizens of Boulder County, all three newspapers 
> >>>>
> >>>>have
> >>>>
> >>>>>been at every meeting.   The Daily Camera,  Colorado Daily and 
> >>>>
> >>>>Longmont
> >>>>
> >>>>>Times Call...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I will be looking for you...  Bye,  Peter Richards
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:42:28 -0700 (MST) Evan Daniel Ravitz
> >>>>><evan@xxxxxxxx> writes:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I think something like half of your 65% "clueless" are that way
> >>>>>>because they "despair" of getting thru the spin and hype at the
> >>>>>>truth with the time, energy etc they have.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>For example, they know it's not completely a joke when ERC chair
> >>>>>>Richard Lyons said they might just put their cover on the
> >>>>>>Republican's report on the election, as reported in the CO Daily
> >>>>>>today.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>It's unlikely the ERC will go beyond its charge and insist on 
> >>>>>>public
> >>>>>>voting software to make vote counting public and transparent 
> >>>>
> >>>>again.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>They will do what the bureaucrats want and talk about 
> >>>>
> >>>>rearranging
> >>>>
> >>>>>>deck chairs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>But I will make the case for truly public vote counting at their
> >>>>>>meeting soon.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Evan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:34:12 -0700, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>[snip]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I think the real question to ask about the low turnout at 
> >>>>
> >>>>these
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>meetings and in the election is "do people care less?" or "do 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>people
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>feel more disenfranchised?"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Certainly, a strong argument can be made that "people don't 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>care,"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>especially with a short term office like the City Council 
> >>>>
> >>>>vacancy 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>or an
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>exciting issue like the coordination of elections, but after 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>what
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>happened in November, isn't it also possible that people 
> >>>>
> >>>>aren't
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>participating because they don't feel confident in the overall 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>process,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>as much as they may not care?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I know I've been as guilty as anyone in the past of adding to 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>noise, but given how low-volume this list has become, I hope 
> >>>>
> >>>>we 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>can
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>focus on the signal.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Thanks to everyone for all your efforts to help us achieve 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>trustworthy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>elections in Boulder County!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Let me give a try at this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Both the Libertarian and Green parties have noticed - as you 
> >>>>
> >>>>have 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>noticed -
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>that people simply are not willing to participate in politics.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The cause of this is varied.  I'll catalog my unscientific 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>observations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(1) 65%: Clueless.  They are uninterested in politics and 
> >>>>
> >>>>couldn't 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>care less
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>if the country was run by George Bush or Chinese Premier Wen 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Jiabao.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(2) 15%.  The free rider problem:  "I'll let someone else take 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>care of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>this."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(2) 10%.  Despair. Nothing I could possibly do will help.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(3) 5%. I think elections are honest.  What are you talking 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>about?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(4) 4%. Between the kids, working two jobs, and sleep, I wish I 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>could help.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(5) 0.5%: I'm involved politically but I can't devote any time 
> >>>>
> >>>>to 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(6) 0.4%: I'm involved politically and I think that being able 
> >>>>
> >>>>to 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>rig the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>voting system is a very good thing. It means that my side has a 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>chance of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>winning.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>(7) 0.1%: I'll support this movement with my time and effort.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>So how do we change things?  It's hard to do it without getting 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>people riled
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>up.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Most of you already know my position on getting people riled 
> >>>>
> >>>>up.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>Ralph Shnelvar
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Joe
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>On Mar 13, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>As usual, I completely agree with Al.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Indeed, as you wrote on March 9:
> >>>>>>>>>- - - - -
> >>>>>>>>>Mr. Shaffer was involved in the LATs; he's the LP party 
> >>>>
> >>>>chair; 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>and was
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>a
> >>>>>>>>>candidate for SD17. His reward: insults.
> >>>>>>>>>- - - - -
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Why should I cooperate and/or testify when I already know 
> >>>>
> >>>>what 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>results
> >>>>>>>>>will be?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>As Joe, I hope, will confirm, I have been moderately active 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>behind the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>scenes trying to make positive change.  I have met with Joe 
> >>>>
> >>>>& 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>Co. on
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>several
> >>>>>>>>>occasions.  I have met with Joe & Co. and Salas and Lewis to 
> >>>>
> >>>>>>try to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>get hand
> >>>>>>>>>co
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> .
> >> 
> 

-- 
Paul E Condon           
pecondon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx