Re: ERC meeting of Friday, March 18

[Ralph Shnelvar <ralphs@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear Paul:

I believe that a "valid" birth certificate could probably be easily forged.
Driver's licenses are harder.

Ralph

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:33:40 -0700, you wrote:

>Actually, one needs to be 18yrs or older to register to vote. I think
>very few prairie dogs qualify. And a valid birth certificate...??? or
>drivers license?
>
>On Sat, Mar 19, 2005 at 09:01:16AM -0700, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>> Dear friends:
>> 
>> Per your request, Evan and I went down to testify.  We testified around 2
>> p.m. yesterday, Friday.
>> 
>> Paul Tiger was not there.  This is not to criticize him (He was excused) but
>> to have him know that he guilted me into going.  I said as much in my
>> testimony.
>> 
>> Evan did a great job testifying.
>> 
>> The highlight of the two hours I spent there, though, was Neal's wonderful
>> presentation on the way that auditing could be done.  He brought up a wealth
>> of good points.  He did a masterful job of saying "Hand counting is better
>> ... but if you are not going to do full hand counting, here are ways to
>> insure that the electronically counted paper ballots are validated."
>> 
>> One really good point was made by the Chair, Mr. Lyons.  He pointed out that
>> he has observed elections in three other countries.  "If you want to control
>> an election, the point to do it is not during the counting but during
>> registration and canvassing," he said.  He asked that the activists pay
>> attention to these issues as well.  Neal, to his credit, said to Mr. Lyons,
>> "Yes, that's a very valid point."
>> 
>> Ladies and Gentlemen, I ask you to please consider that "easy registration"
>> (i.e. motor voter, mail-in registrations, "registration drives", etc.) are
>> an invitation to screw the electorate.
>> 
>> The political Left has been pushing to make it easier and easier to
>> register. The political calculation, I guess, is that the easier
>> registration is then those regristrants will vote Democratic/Green/Left. As
>> the last election showed, the Republicans did a masterful job of "turning
>> out voters".
>> 
>> As a Libertarian, I couldn't care less who won the last election; except to
>> the extent that the election seems to have had problems that leave me
>> uneasy.
>> 
>> Perhaps the best piece of political wisdom on this issue comes from the
>> movie, "The Sting".  In it Paul Newman beats Robert Shaw at a game of poker.
>> Robert Shaw says (and I'm going to paraphrase because I'm doing this from
>> memory), "How do you complain about a guy who cheats better than you do?"
>> 
>> We really do need to concentrate on the input side of the voting system:
>> resgistration. Only those who are supposed to vote should be allowed to
>> register to vote. Perhaps, even, to the extent that voter registration
>> should be tied to the tax roles.
>> 
>> I really dislike the above idea.  It makes my skin crawl.  But the voting
>> franchise is precious.  It should not be squandred.  Does anyone have a
>> better sugggestion?
>> 
>> In fact, this problem has existed for a long time.  My friend and attorney,
>> Marcy Newman, in Chicago made TV news 30 years ago when (with the permission
>> of the State Attorney General) she successfully registered he pet dog,
>> Macho, to be an Illinois voter.
>> 
>> I guess we could always register the adult prarie dogs in Boulder in order
>> to change the outcomes of elections.
>> 
>> Ralph Shnelvar
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:57:38 -0700, you wrote:
>> 
>> >Hi Evan,
>> >
>> >You could go to the ERC and wave the list of volunteer counters from 
>> >the Web site you created last year. No one else can do that.
>> >
>> >I suspect that true volunteers could not be used by the county to 
>> >count votes, but maybe the willingness of people to help out when 
>> >asked by someone they know should be taken into account. It's 
>> >different to receive an e-mail in which a friend asks one to sign up 
>> >compared to skimming over an advertisement in the Sunday paper in 
>> >which the county asks for election judges. The county might try the 
>> >"network" approach the next time that election judges are needed.
>> >
>> >All the best,
>> >Mary
>> >
>> >Mary C. Eberle
>> >1520 Cress Court
>> >Boulder, CO 80304, USA
>> >(303) 442-2164
>> >m.eberle@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >www.wordrite.com
>> >
>> >Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>> >
>> >> Peter:
>> >> 
>> >> You still have not explained why the presense of any person or group would
>> >> make any difference at all.
>> >> 
>> >> Ralph Shnelvar
>> >> 
>> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:57:26 -0700, you wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>>Ralph,  et al...
>> >>>
>> >>>I am going to give you a very short answer to your questions below about
>> >>>the usefulness of the ERC work that has been going on...
>> >>>
>> >>>Neal and/or  Joe may care to add more...
>> >>>
>> >>>I believe that there is a better than 50-50 chance the ERC will recommend
>> >>>that Boulder County dump,  repeat dump, the Hart Intecivic system that
>> >>>the County bought.
>> >>>
>> >>>This ERC group is not a rubber stamp for anyone...
>> >>>
>> >>>You should especially attend the meeting this Friday, 18 March.
>> >>>
>> >>>I has been discovered there were problems in the 'PS' file...  see email
>> >>>below from a member of the ERC group, which may be why Eagle Direct had
>> >>>the printing problems they had, through no fault of their own...
>> >>>
>> >>>Bye,  Peter Richards
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>I think maybe we found the problem.  It was in the PS file.  Having the
>> >>>file reviewed by a PS person would more than likely find the problem.
>> >>>
>> >>>Tom Davidson P.E.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:56:27 -0700 Ralph Shnelvar <ralphs@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>writes:
>> >>>
>> >>>>Dear Peter:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It is sometimes difficult to express emotional tone in an eMail so 
>> >>>>please
>> >>>>understand that the following is being written in a friendly way and 
>> >>>>that my
>> >>>>questions to you are not being written sarcastically or 
>> >>>>rhetorically.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I am asking for your input to explain to me what you think will be
>> >>>>accomplished by either Evan or me showing up to an ERC meeting.  Is 
>> >>>>it just
>> >>>>to have two more bodies show up and display their disgust with the 
>> >>>>voting
>> >>>>process?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>From my perspective, the purpose of the committee is to
>> >>>>        Fix the machines
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Evan and my agenda is to have hand counted paper ballots.  Al's 
>> >>>>agenda is to
>> >>>>make sure that the electoral process is open, fair, and accurate.  I 
>> >>>>don't
>> >>>>know if he supports hand counted paper ballots but I suspect that he 
>> >>>>would
>> >>>>support hand counted paper ballots if there were the proper 
>> >>>>controls.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Perhaps a little background will help explain where I'm coming 
>> >>>>from.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>As people on this list may or may not know, both Evan and I are 
>> >>>>politically
>> >>>>active.  What may be surprising is that Evan and I are friends and 
>> >>>>that I
>> >>>>deeply respect (and agree with!) the vast majority of his political
>> >>>>positions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Both Evan and I are spread very thin fighting a multitude of 
>> >>>>political
>> >>>>battles.  Whether it is wise to be spread so thin is an open 
>> >>>>question but,
>> >>>>at least for me, being able to hook people up so that things get
>> >>>>accomplished is deeply satisfying.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>For instance, about a week ago I worked with my friends (both 
>> >>>>political and
>> >>>>otherwise), Thomas and Larissa Lawrence, to get them on local TV 
>> >>>>news.
>> >>>>Perhaps you remember them?  They were the people who successfully 
>> >>>>managed to
>> >>>>get their medical marijuana back from the Denver police.  It made 
>> >>>>front page
>> >>>>news.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>"Working" the press took me about 8 hours.  It meant taking the day 
>> >>>>off of
>> >>>>work and driving to the event and ...
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Peter, I have no idea if the medical marijuana issue is a hot button 
>> >>>>for
>> >>>>you.  Nonetheless, I hope you understand that there are only so many 
>> >>>>hours
>> >>>>that I can devote to these issues.  I do, in fact, have a job.  I'm 
>> >>>>trying
>> >>>>to sell my house.  I'm picking up a bridge loan to purchase yet 
>> >>>>another
>> >>>>house so that I have a place to move my family into when I sell this 
>> >>>>house.
>> >>>>I have to help my kids with their homework.  I've got a lot of balls 
>> >>>>in the
>> >>>>air.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>So, Peter, (and again, this is being written in a friendly way), do 
>> >>>>you
>> >>>>think that it is worth my time to attend this ERC meeting?  Let me 
>> >>>>put it
>> >>>>this way: If you were my boss and you saw all the things (both 
>> >>>>personal and
>> >>>>civic) that I was doing, would you tell me, "Ralph, attend the ERC
>> >>>>meeting."?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I ask you this, Peter, because I may not know how important the ERC 
>> >>>>meeting
>> >>>>is.  I may be missing something.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Yes, the press is covering it.  But I can tell you with absolute 
>> >>>>certainty
>> >>>>that this coverage is making no impact on the citizenry's 
>> >>>>consciousness.  I
>> >>>>know because I ask people.  You want the pulse of Boulder?  Talk to 
>> >>>>a random
>> >>>>barber and a hairdresser.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>My prejudice is that the ERC is a total waste of time for all the
>> >>>>participants.  If you feel differently, please explain why and then 
>> >>>>I will
>> >>>>make up my mind whether to take the time to attend this Friday.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I am open to having my mind changed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Ralph Shnelvar
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:51:23 -0700, you wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>To:  Evan Ravitz
>> >>>>>       Ralph Shnelvar
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>From:  Peter Richards
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Date: Monday, 14 March 2005,     20:40
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Re:  Boulder County Election Review Committee
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>It would be nice if either of you would come to an Election Review
>> >>>>>Committee meeting.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>In my memory, neither of you has attended one meeting...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>The next three meetings are as follows:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Fri. 18  March  2005,   13:00  to 17:00
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Fri. 25 March 2005,   13:00 to 17:00
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Fri. 1 April 2005,  13:00 to 17:00
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>All meetings are at the 33rd St. Election headquarters, just north 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>of the
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>RTD garage, and across the street from the Boulder Police Dept.  
>> >>>>
>> >>>>They
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>meet in the Charlotte Houston room, on the north side of the 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>building, on
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>the ground floor.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>The last meeting for any public comment is the 1 April meeting !!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Luckily, for the citizens of Boulder County, all three newspapers 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>have
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>been at every meeting.   The Daily Camera,  Colorado Daily and 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Longmont
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>Times Call...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>I will be looking for you...  Bye,  Peter Richards
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:42:28 -0700 (MST) Evan Daniel Ravitz
>> >>>>><evan@xxxxxxxx> writes:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>I think something like half of your 65% "clueless" are that way
>> >>>>>>because they "despair" of getting thru the spin and hype at the
>> >>>>>>truth with the time, energy etc they have.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>For example, they know it's not completely a joke when ERC chair
>> >>>>>>Richard Lyons said they might just put their cover on the
>> >>>>>>Republican's report on the election, as reported in the CO Daily
>> >>>>>>today.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>It's unlikely the ERC will go beyond its charge and insist on 
>> >>>>>>public
>> >>>>>>voting software to make vote counting public and transparent 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>again.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>They will do what the bureaucrats want and talk about 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>rearranging
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>deck chairs.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>But I will make the case for truly public vote counting at their
>> >>>>>>meeting soon.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Evan
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:34:12 -0700, you wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>[snip]
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>I think the real question to ask about the low turnout at 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>these
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>meetings and in the election is "do people care less?" or "do 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>people
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>feel more disenfranchised?"
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>Certainly, a strong argument can be made that "people don't 
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>care,"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>especially with a short term office like the City Council 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>vacancy 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>or an
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>exciting issue like the coordination of elections, but after 
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>what
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>happened in November, isn't it also possible that people 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>aren't
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>participating because they don't feel confident in the overall 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>process,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>as much as they may not care?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>I know I've been as guilty as anyone in the past of adding to 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>noise, but given how low-volume this list has become, I hope 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>we 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>can
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>focus on the signal.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>Thanks to everyone for all your efforts to help us achieve 
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>trustworthy
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>elections in Boulder County!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Let me give a try at this.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Both the Libertarian and Green parties have noticed - as you 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>have 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>noticed -
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>that people simply are not willing to participate in politics.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>The cause of this is varied.  I'll catalog my unscientific 
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>observations.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(1) 65%: Clueless.  They are uninterested in politics and 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>couldn't 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>care less
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>if the country was run by George Bush or Chinese Premier Wen 
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Jiabao.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(2) 15%.  The free rider problem:  "I'll let someone else take 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>care of
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>this."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(2) 10%.  Despair. Nothing I could possibly do will help.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(3) 5%. I think elections are honest.  What are you talking 
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>about?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(4) 4%. Between the kids, working two jobs, and sleep, I wish I 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>could help.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(5) 0.5%: I'm involved politically but I can't devote any time 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>to 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>this.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(6) 0.4%: I'm involved politically and I think that being able 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>to 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>rig the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>voting system is a very good thing. It means that my side has a 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>chance of
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>winning.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>(7) 0.1%: I'll support this movement with my time and effort.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>So how do we change things?  It's hard to do it without getting 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>people riled
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>up.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Most of you already know my position on getting people riled 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>up.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>Ralph Shnelvar
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>Joe
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>On Mar 13, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Ralph Shnelvar wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>As usual, I completely agree with Al.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Indeed, as you wrote on March 9:
>> >>>>>>>>>- - - - -
>> >>>>>>>>>Mr. Shaffer was involved in the LATs; he's the LP party 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>chair; 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>and was
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>a
>> >>>>>>>>>candidate for SD17. His reward: insults.
>> >>>>>>>>>- - - - -
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Why should I cooperate and/or testify when I already know 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>what 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>results
>> >>>>>>>>>will be?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>As Joe, I hope, will confirm, I have been moderately active 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>behind the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>scenes trying to make positive change.  I have met with Joe 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>& 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>Co. on
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>several
>> >>>>>>>>>occasions.  I have met with Joe & Co. and Salas and Lewis to 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>try to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>get hand
>> >>>>>>>>>co
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> .
>> >> 
>>