Re: election bills come to committee tomorrow "upon recess"

[Kathy Dopp <kathy.dopp@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dr. Corry,

I agree with Cliff that approval voting is a good method of voting.
Unlike Instant Runoff Voting, approval voting treats all voters'
ballots equally and fairly and approval voting is simple to count,
precinct-summable, and thus approval voting:

1. seems to produce fair, equitable, desirable election outcomes, and

2. is simple to manually count and to manually audit.

Although there is debate amongst election methods experts on whether
simple voting methods like approval voting or more complex methods
like Condorcet methods or range voting or min/max, etc. are best, I
personally have no objection to approval voting which does seem to
solve some of the problems of our existing plurality system and yet is
very simple for voters and is simple for those doing the counting or
auditing.

Instant Runoff Voting is a nightmare, an absolutely unfair, complex,
undesirable voting method, but approval voting seems very fair and
simple.  Some object to it because it does not allow voters to rank or
rate their each candidate relative to each other candidate, but it
does allow voters to express the names of more than one candidate they
approve of and seems to thus be an improvement, and a very simple one,
over our existing method.

Cheers,

Kathy

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Dr. Charles E. Corry <ccorry@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> At 9:51 AM -0600 1/22/09, Cliff West wrote:
>
> I was suggesting what you are calling approval voting. Colorado Statutes
> allow home rule counties and cities to conduct it, now.  If West Virginia,
> third poorest state in nation can do it, Colorado should be able to.
>
> [West Virginia has long had a reputation for some of the most corrupt
> election practices in the nation. To use them as a model for an election is
> equivalent to putting Enron forward as a model for business.
>     I would suggest you review Kathy Dopp's work
> http://kathydopp.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/36-Instant-Runoff-Voting-Not-What-It-Seems.html
> on Instant Runoff Voting before making further statements about the method.]
>
>  Admittedly, a patchwork of home rule governments would not be able to
> change outcome of a Congressional or statewide race, but it could make
> county commission and house district reprsentative races more democratic and
> less influenced by campaign contributions.
>
> [There seems to be confusion here. My understanding is that Colorado has
> home rule cities but all county governments are under state control and have
> to follow state law in all respects. Denver is a city and county and is
> probably an exception, as it is to law and order in general. Otherwise, home
> rule cities have no control over county commission or house district
> elections, which are run by county clerks. Conversely, some county clerks
> run elections for home rule cities, but I know of no exception where the
> reverse is true.]
>             Chuck Corry
>
>> Subject: RE: election bills come to committee tomorrow "upon recess"
>> From: media@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:22:41 -0500
>> To: clifwest@xxxxxxxxxxx; ccorry@xxxxxxxx; margitjo@xxxxxxxxx;
>> harvie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; angielayton@xxxxxxxx;
>> ivan.meek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; richey80304@xxxxxxxxx; m.eberle@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
>> tmmco1@xxxxxxx; ctlo@xxxxxxx; amaynard_1@xxxxxxxx; alkolwicz@xxxxxxxxx;
>> jdlwcec@xxxxxxxxx; attendees@xxxxxxx; cvv-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> CC: rockymtnmom2@xxxxxxx
>>
>> Clif
>> Approval voting simply adds the votes of first,second,third choices and is
>> easy to count. IRV requires removing specific first choice votes, replacing
>> with second place, and retallying, and very likely repeating this process
>> again. IRV is relatively complex, for auditing surely requires
>> interpretation to be separated from tabulation, and is well suited to
>> computer rather than hand tabulation.
>>
>> There are many flavors of preferential voting. Not much has been done
>> about planning for auditing IRV.
>>
>> I do support preferential methods, but not necessarily IRV.
>>
>> Harvie
>>
>> Cliff West <clifwest@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I should have said there were no contested contests in my jeffco
>> > precinct.
>> >
>> >I do not see why instant runoff voting would require computers. It
>> > appears to me totals for all candidates need to be added anyway and instant
>> > runoff voting would just increase totals, by allowing voter to vote for two
>> > of three or three or four candidates, etc.
>> >
>> >Why would this require a computer? People added totals before electronic
>> > calculators.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:34:04 -0700To: clifwest@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>> > margitjo@xxxxxxxxx; harvie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>> > angielayton@xxxxxxxx; ivan.meek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; richey80304@xxxxxxxxx;
>> > m.eberle@xxxxxxxxxxxx; tmmco1@xxxxxxx; ctlo@xxxxxxx; amaynard_1@xxxxxxxx;
>> > alkolwicz@xxxxxxxxx; jdlwcec@xxxxxxxxx; attendees@xxxxxxx;
>> > cvv-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: ccorry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: RE: election
>> > bills come to committee tomorrow "upon recess"CC: Rockymtnmom2@xxxxxxx
>
>> >
>> >
>> >At 2:24 PM -0600 1/21/09, Cliff West wrote:
>> >I am in favor of eliminating uncontested contests from primary, to avoid
>> > wasting taxpayer money. There was not a single contested candidate in the
>> > Jefferson County Democratic primary this time - what a waste of time and
>> > money!
>> >
>> >[What we really need is to hold fewer special district, municipal, and
>> > elections to replace crooks caught in the act, who die, or resign. These
>> > positions could go unfilled until the next regular election without
>> > significant harm to the body politic.]
>> >
>> >We should try to pressure legislature and clerks to adopt instant runoff
>> > voting, in exchange for agreeing to end primary, which usually occurs too
>> > late to make any difference, in CO.
>> >
>> >[Instant runoff elections are the worst possible choice and no one has
>> > yet demonstrated how to make them work accurately and reliably. IRE also
>> > absolutely require computers to handle them but programming and other errors
>> > have been rampant where they've been tried. DON'T DO THAT! And primaries are
>> > necessary where two or more candidates are running for the same office,
>> > which is quite desirable in a democratic republic. Elections are not about
>> > cost, they are about preserving our Constitution and freedoms.]
>> >
>> > The largest potential source of mail ballot fraud is probably disabled
>> > nursing home patients and their low paid staff, who may be amenable to
>> > payoffs. I have not heard any credible proposals for reducing fraud in
>> > assited living centers. I have heard the going rate for BUYING a nursing
>> > home vote is $100, but do not know how accurate the figure is.
>> >
>> >[NO! The largest potential source of fraud with mail ballots is an
>> > insider at the clerk's office who has access to the ballot tabulation
>> > software. Mail ballots are typically counted in a back room at the clerk's
>> > office with little or no public oversight so an insider changing the
>> > outcomes is quite unlikely to be detected.
>> > For more on why mail ballots are a bad idea see
>> > http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-77.htm. Remember, you can have an honest
>> > election, or you can have a mail ballot election, but you can't have both at
>> > the same time.]
>> > Chuck Corry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:44:18 -0700Subject: election bills come to
>> > committee tomorrow "upon recess"From: margitjo@xxxxxxxxxxx:
>> > harvie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; angielayton@xxxxxxxx;
>> > ivan.meek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; richey80304@xxxxxxxxx; m.eberle@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
>> > clifwest@xxxxxxxxxxx; Tmmco1@xxxxxxx; ctlo@xxxxxxx; amaynard_1@xxxxxxxx;
>> > ccorry@xxxxxxxx; alkolwicz@xxxxxxxxx; jdlwcec@xxxxxxxxx; attendees@xxxxxxx;
>> > cvv-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >Hi All,
>> > A couple of election bills are scheduled to come before the House State,
>> > Veterans and Military Affairs Committee TOMORROW AM, "UPON RECESS", i.e.
>> > when the general assembly recesses after their morning meeting, which is
>> > whenever...9AM? 9:30? You just have to go in early and hang around.
>> > The one that seems of most concern (although I haven't read the others
>> > in detail) is HB1015, which would allow all-mail ballot elections for
>> > primaries. (See attachment.) It is fourth on the list; I don't know how much
>> > time the first three bills will take. There is always the chance they won't
>> > make it to the fourth bill.
>> > (If you can show that mail ballot elections are not as secure because
>> > they don't have the protection of citizen oversight etc etc, then you can
>> > say that this will allow parties, if not others, to favor the candidates
>> > they prefer for their purposes. Citizen preferences for candidates could
>> > lose out to establishment candidates, for example. Right?)
>> > I hope those who can give good specific examples of security problems
>> > with mail ballots will come forward to testify. For Dems, examples that show
>> > monied interests undermining the vote with mail ballots is probably more
>> > compelling than individual vote fraud, given that recent studies have
>> > downplayed the effect of individual fraud. For Republicans, examples of
>> > individual fraud seems to resonate, though.
>> >I hope to see you computer experts, and election reformers all, at the
>> > hearing tomorrow AM!
>
>> >Thanks so much,
>> >Margit
>> >
>> >Margit Johansson, CFVI
>> >303-442-1668/ margitjo@xxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Windows LiveÅ Hotmail(R):Smore than just e-mail. Check it out.
>> >
>> >_________________________________________________________________
>> >Hotmail(R) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone.
>>
>> > >http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208
>
> ________________________________
>
> Windows Live Hotmail(R):Šmore than just e-mail. Check it out.
>



-- 

Kathy Dopp

The material expressed herein is the informed  product of the author's
fact-finding and investigative efforts. Dopp is a Mathematician,
Expert in election audit mathematics and procedures; in exit poll
discrepancy analysis; and can be reached at

P.O. Box 680192
Park City, UT 84068
phone 435-658-4657

http://utahcountvotes.org
http://electionmathematics.org
http://kathydopp.com/serendipity/

Post-Election Vote Count Audit
A Short Legislative & Administrative Proposal
http://electionmathematics.org//ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/Vote-Count-Audit-Bill-2009.pdf

History of Confidence Election Auditing Development & Overview of
Election Auditing Fundamentals
http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/History-of-Election-Auditing-Development.pdf

Voters Have Reason to Worry
http://utahcountvotes.org/UT/UtahCountVotes-ThadHall-Response.pdf