Re: ERC Report Draft Insults Election Reform Activists

[Paul E Condon <pecondon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

FYI, a recent edition of Wall Street Journal had an article on the 
raised sword method. It _is_ still used in at least one small canton.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 12:27:16PM -0600, Joe Pezzillo wrote:
> 
> Sorry, that's not entirely true. The Swiss always hand count, and in 
> some (perhaps most, although I don't know the exact numbers) ALSO use 
> the currency counters. I'll follow up with Beat off-list to make sure 
> this is true, but that's my understanding from reading their report.
> 
> Also, I do try to mention the currency counters every time, it's one of 
> the reasons for the ballots to be that size. And even with the currency 
> counters, remember that every ballot is hand resolved, that is the 
> actual counting ("sorting") is done by a human, not a machine. The 
> currency counters verify that the humans have counted correctly. The 
> method that I usually don't mention is the very rare (and possibly no 
> longer used) "voting by raising your sword in the public square" 
> method, however, which you might like even more.
> 
> Also, Evan frequently mentioned that hand counting was used in Canada 
> and various European countries, I think he mentioned the UK and 
> Germany. What we didn't have at the time (and in fact the reason I was 
> skeptical of it then) was a tangible demonstration of how it is done.
> 
> In many ways, to see it is to believe it. A remarkable concept in 
> transparent elections, huh?
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Paul Tiger - LPBC - Outreach wrote:
> 
> >And then we were introduced to the Swiss method - which I like.
> >
> >The best thing about the SVM in my view is the electromechanical 
> >counters.
> >What could be more accurate than a currency counter? How easy to test?
> >It doesn't involve humans counting hundreds of thousands of slips of 
> >paper.
> >I don't think that humans can do that accurately and studies show that 
> >I am
> >right.
> >
> >Colored paper; large notches to identify ballot styles; easily readable
> >markings; hi-speed currency counters. It works for me.
> >I think that it is to our detriment not to mention the counters. Joe 
> >never
> >says this when selling the SVM, so listeners assume hand counts, which 
> >could
> >be done, but isn't done by the Swiss. If this is to sell then we have 
> >to
> >sell it as is, not modify it and then call it the SVM.
> >
> >As for the legality issue: I think that if you look at these threads 
> >you'll
> >find me dancing around with Evan and Neal concerning counting paper 
> >ballots
> >in parallel with the in-use approved method. That would be an audit, 
> >not a
> >hand count. At the time it was unlawful to perform an audit. The SoS 
> >gave
> >the city a waiver to perform an audit in a municipal election. She 
> >could
> >have given BoCo a waiver for November, but no one asked.
> >
> >At the time hand counts were lawful and audits were not. Things have
> >changed.
> >
> >paul
> >
> >
> 

-- 
Paul E Condon           
pecondon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx